To Play Or Not To Play?

By DavidP

“To play or not to play?” Apologies to Hamlet and Shakespeare I might also have quoted “To share or not to share?”, as I feel a little twinge of vulnerability in sharing this. Obviously the answer was “To share” since here it is I was immediately excited to create, join and support when BP introduced the Daily Challenge. I love the challenges for a few reasons. Firstly, when I am lacking inspiration for creating then a challenge solves that problem. Then there is the fun of creating something fresh, something I might otherwise never had done. This is especially the case when creating for various Build-A-Prompt challenges on NightCafe. Finally, I love to see what other people have come up with. Those are my intrinsic motivators. Of course there are the extrinsic motivators – the possibility of a place and the credit prize. And the possibility of a 'happy hormones' - dopamine, serotonin, oxytocin, and endorphine – rush triggered by a good placing (I wrote about this in my first blog post). The theme for this maiden challenge was ‘Golden Hour Companions’. The first idea that popped into my head was sunset, a beach, a couple taking a walk with their dog. Totally on theme. But not really inspiring. Not the kind of image I’d like to submit to a challenge (I did subsequently create such an image but that’s a subject for another blog). I mulled over this a little more and to cut a long story short, came to the idea of leaning into companionship and deepening it to symbiosis. And how might the golden hour become a part of the symbiotic relationship, rather than just time and lighting? Research turned up a desert moth and flower. I explored a painted style and after a few iterations was satisfied. Actually I was more than satisfied – I thought the image was a bit special. I submitted, voted, and waited with a sense of anticipation. Based on the image and the entries I’d seen voting I thought I had a fair chance of placing well, even Top 3. When the results were announced mine finished 4th – close but no cigar, so near yet so far. I know we are all prone to personal bias and likely to see our own images through rose-coloured glasses, but looking at the first three, I couldn’t help but think mine could so easily have finished in the Top 3. I must add and stress that I am not suggesting that the placing images were poor in any way. The images were good quality, on theme. I sincerely congratulated the winners. But all those unhappy feelings came flooding back in that moment; the feelings that I had experienced participating in NightCafe challenges. Not helped by my subjective opinions of my image. I say “subjective” intentionally. A challenge with challenges is the voting, whether the mechanism is a score out of 5, a ranking, or the novel idea implemented by BP of using an ELO-based pairings mechanism, that lacks well-defined criteria and so is inherently subjective. My approach to voting is based on three criteria. First, and most heavily weighted, is originality/creativity. Then general image quality. Finally adherence to theme. The last is more “ticket to the game”, as almost without exception people are on theme, even if sometimes less strongly so. I try not to let my personal taste play a major part. Of course this is impossible to ignore, likely has some influence albeit subconsciously. As for image quality - these days image quality is generally good to excellent. The capability of the AI models used, the additional tools to aid in prompt-writing, and the options to enhance post-generation have removed near to all obstacles to producing a quality image. So much so that some people bemoan that fact, preferring the days when writing the prompt took some significant finesse to get a quality image. That said, I can appreciate how people who spent decades learning how to actually paint and draw or use digital image creation tools to produce images by hand, feel about GAI that totally devalues those technical skills. But I should not digress. The unhappy feelings passed. And I entered the next few challenges. I was already less inclined to invest significant time in the developing of the idea and iterating the prompt until I had an image to submit which I thought other people would consider deserving if it placed. The images were all OK but none were special. They got what they deserved. I would have to look back to confirm how they did. Actually I think one may have even earned the dubious distinction of being last. Then came the “Dreamy Lady Portrait” challenge. For no obvious reason, I invested time in exploring ideas and styles, first testing some options. Then selecting the best style and subject to fit the theme, bringing together dreaminess and a lady. Then a number of iterations to refine the style. Again I felt there was something about the image that made it stand out relative to other images I have created. Again I felt that I just might be in with a shout. Perhaps not Top 3 but at least Top 10. 18/34 I am not sure which result was more disappointing – the 4th or the 18th – both left me feeling unhappy. I can say I was not alone in my reactions. There was much chat in the Discord Server. Some people have made comments on other peoples’ images expressing surprise at a low place. People made comments on their own posted entries after the fact, asking for reasons why they’d fared so poorly. By this stage the matching algorithm had improved. Far less duplicates. The timing had been adjusted to prevent any advantage gained by when an image was submitted. But still there were people expressing their personal frustrations. And my experience tells me for every person being vocal there are likely more who don’t express their feelings. There is far less chat about this now, but still occasionally I see such a comment. @King perhaps it would be helpful to post a blog in which you explain exactly how the matching algorithm and voting works. I know it is based on chess ELO. I play Daily Chess on chess.com so am familiar with the ups and downs of my rating. My brother is a strong player (best rating was just below 2000 when he played over-the-board swiss-style tournaments), so I understand chess ratings well. I know it can’t be replicated fully here. I suspect it could better be described as a clustered sampling algorithm. And with the improvements you have made I imagine that there are sufficient pairings to achieve a statistically sound result. Having voted in a couple of challenges that have just finished I did notice far less repeated images in my pairings, which is good. That said, when I vote may still matter as I assume the pairing algorithm is updating ratings in real time. So if I vote late then unlikely that picking an image that has bubbled down based on completed voting is unlikely to have significant impact on its final placing? Similar not picking one with a high rating is unlikly to make it tumble down the rankings. Perhaps at this point some may think I am whining, suffering a severe case of “sour grapes”. Perhaps I am overly sensitive to how people feel, based on their reactions. Maybe, as some say, they are just having a little grumble and I should not worry. But I do. When somebody expresses a thought that maybe they “don’t belong”, triggered by a challenge result, I feel right to be concerned, at least caring. In this modern world of social media, the attention economy, I think what I am talking about here, is just one specific case and there are more such scenarios where people do experience emotional problems as a result of interactions in social media. I have come to consider the result of the challenge a matter of luck. It reflects who happens to see your image, when people see it, their own personal taste. Trying to think rationally about this is futile. Many people replied to those people commenting and questioning in this vein. For me, it becomes a conflict of IQ vs EQ. In my rational head I understand this. I know that the placing of my image is at best loosely correlated to the quality of the image, both in its own right and relative to others. The lack of objective criteria makes this inevitable. When I view the top 10 results of challenges after seeing somebody express their unhappiness I can usually share feedback that based on what I see their image was as deserving as top 10 or top 3 as those that achieved those places – sometimes more so in my opinion. But I still lack strong enough EQ to ensure that I do not feel that sense of unhappiness. About this time I was exposed to the idea of the QT – Quote Tweet. I believe it was first @Sealine then @dirty_biker @EternaSky @justrob who showed me the way. Since then I've enjoyed the creations and QTs of many others. For those who’ve not picked up on this in BP, somebody posts an image with a QT theme and tags the people who’ve participated before and asked to be tagged. Others may post their own image for the QT, also tagging people. People can ask not to be tagged in future. I like this. It has all the same intrinsic motivators as the challenge does: inspiration, sharing, connection. But there is no competition, no judgement, no credit rewards. So to circle back, if you are still with me . . . “To play or not to play?” By now you have probably figured out the answer for me is . . . “Not to play”. I don’t enjoy gambling, am not one who puts money into a slot machine in the hope of a payday. So it is better for me to opt out of the challenges, given that I see the results as little different to pulling that handle and am prone to feeling disappointed and unhappy when I (for what that is worth) feel my image deserved a higher placing. I spend time (probably more than I should) creating, sharing, and interacting. I do it for fun and relaxation, for the interaction with people I meet here. As such, there is nothing in it for me to enter the challenges. I can still vote if I want to view images submitted to a challenge. The credit reward for participation is less than the cost of creating an image which I think might place well. And I have enough opportunities at work to continue to develop my EQ. I don't need the opportunities to develop that mastery here on BP. I shall continue to participate in the QTs, interact with fellow creators here, and wish all of you who enter the challenges the best of luck. If you stuck to it and read/scanned this far - thank you. If in the reading you have had thoughts, I hope you'll share them. I'd appreciate all thoughts about the topic, whether you agree with me or see things quite differently.

Tags: dailychallenge

Comments (23)

DavidP

Thanks for claps and sharing. Yes, that is an option. Just seems pointless to me. If I am going to enter then I feel like I should try to produce something that has a chance of winning. But it's a catch-22. As it is, I have more than enough inspiration and fun creating for QTs. I strive to be eclectic in subject, and to a lesser degree style. The QT themes keep me busy creating and viewing when tagged. So I really don't have the time as well as the motivation to also participate in the challenges.

dirty_biker

I find myself relating strongly. I struggled with participating in the challenges at NC. Not just the DCs, but the CCs too. The problem is inherent in the system, not in the individual challenge. Being judged on my art led to significant depressive tendencies, and I ultimately dropped every challenge. The tie in to my mental health's improvement made it obvious. For me, and very likely for many others, participating in the challenges was affecting my mental health significantly. I am, unsurprisingly, finding the challenges at BP to be following down that same path. Why might that be? I've been an athlete for much of my younger life. I am no stranger to competition. I never had these same mental health related issues in that arena. If I ranked low, it was because I simply wasn't as good as those that ranked higher. More training would often improve my ranking. It's a direct correlation. As I understand it, the ELO scoring in chess works in chess for the exact same reason. Your ranking reflects your actual skill. What is different about art challenges? The reason competitive challenges work for athletics and chess, etc. is that everyone is playing by the same, limited, specific rules. With art, there are no rules. Everything is subjective. In a running race, we rank the runners by how fast they run. The winner of the race is the runner that finished the race first, not the runner with the prettiest face.

CaylaCatz

Also I think how successful the daily challenge has been in getting people to come out of the woodwork and share their images. When the DC started, the top 10 was the same group of people that I felt was the active core of BP. I saw the them on the feed, the trending posts, the trending creators and they were the only people who made comments on my own posts. It was nice & cozy cuz it felt like a small group of friends. But the DC changed, gradually the top 10 was a diverse group. I still see the active core but they no longer dominate. The active core intersperses the top 10 with new names. Now a much wider group shows up, wins, gets into the top 10. The hardest thing on any platform is discoverability. The DC gives newer people a place to be seen. Since then, it seems to me, trending creators after the first 10 has increased in variety too so there are more new people showing up when you scroll to the right. With more people, I am no longer in the top 10 and that's ok with me. To me, it's a nice thing to do to give a like & a quick comment to someone new to encourage them. I was lucky when I joined as DavidP introduced me to his group but not everyone already has a friend here. The DC does have a high drop in/drop out rate but it is giving new people a place to shine.

base451121

That's a good Thema, @DavidP. It's a topic that's been on my mind at Night Café and ultimately led me to stop participating in the challenge because these ratings are completely incomprehensible. For example, how do you establish a ranking with thousands of entries, especially when everyone casts an average of 20 to 30 votes? And, most importantly, the timing of the upload plays a significant role, as those who upload earlier have a better chance of being featured and included in the voting. As you said, it's not about winning, but when your picture ends up in position 834 and you compare it to the top 20, you feel like you're being made fun of. Therefore, for me, the Quick Times here on BP are the best thing you can do on this scale because I'm not looking for prizes—I can't use up my credits anyway. The only problem is... the sheer volume of submissions is overwhelming. But there's no obligation, so... everything's perfect! Thank you, my friend, for sharing your opinion!!! 👍

archangeltara

WOW ok here is what happened to me on NC I joined the Dirty Jobs challenge I entered a funny one where a man/ husband is in a bathroom it did orange poo all over it like the toilet exploded all b/c he didn't call the plumber with his wife looking at him kinda upset. The day of the challenge just as voting began mine got rejected b/c of orange poo I couldn't replace the image. As I was voting my goodness there was red blood some were titles assassination a lot of violence and I was like what the heck? Then when I saw the results I was like why was mine rejected and theirs wasn't? So of course I was hurt by this and felt targeted. I feel maybe have 1 image go up against the other and so on to vote on I feel this would hopefully give a better more accurate 1st place, instead of using emojis. Also when we are voting some people have been with NC a really long time where there are those that just joined. So maybe have just joined to 1 year NC Daily challenge, then 1 Year to 2 years etc. I also feel to help everyone reach 1st, 2nd and 3rd place if you won one of those you can no longer win those this way everyone gets a chance to get that badge. When I vote and like you said you can't go by what you would put in your home or what your taste is I agree with that. So majority of the time in voting with the emojis I give the last emoji the heart eyes then the one next to that one I try not to us the middle to the last two. to me it is like having a child coming to you with their art work and majority of parents cherish their art work and place on the fridge or frame it they don't look at it and say that is really crappy and throw it away. God a least I hope not. You are right NC verses on here. I've been with NC since 11/2023 not once have I reached 1st, 2nd or 3rd place I have managed placing top 5%, and 10% on here within 2 weeks of joining I got 1st place I was thrilled. You are so right about that Happy Hormone feeling. I got 4,000 credits WOO HOO!😍

TTRPG_Player

I have to read this when I have time. For the image that ended today where I did not publish but amde 4th place. I made 2 images with p-image (10 credits each) and then submitted. I deactivated pbulishing because I did not expated it to perform so spectecular...... But you can have good success with littles (time and credits investment).

Sealine

I've been meaning to reply but I'm quite sleep deprived and not sure I can adequately express my view. For now, I just want to say great article.

germancowboy

Part I There are so many parts in the blog post that I would like to respond too, but I have not that much time. So I start from the end to the post to front. Casino gambling: There are different kinds of gambling actually; as a local in Las Vegas you are "not one who puts money into a slot machine in the hope of a payday.". It is ongoing entertainment for you, you frequent your favorite "locals" casino, to support it. It is social place, where you meet other locals, where you feel like home, because everyone knows you. You do not play high amounts, you play the money that you want to spend. You have a players card, enjoy free drinks while you play, you get free food, free play money, gifts, free nights in the hotel, and other perks. And occasionally you DO win a jackpot, but it is not the reason to go there. You are supporting the place, the servers, everyone there, so that you have a place where you can go to. And it does not even have to cost you more then an evening at your locals bar. Playing the Challenges: That said, playing the challenges, is almost the same thing. You are not in it to win, but to show off your art, and to support the site. You want to make it attractive to others, so that you have a place where you can create, share and interact. I like it here, because quite a few people know you, you meet other creators, you feel like home. This is pretty much the same as being a local in Las Vegas, you spent the money that you can afford, you get free credits if you participate in the challenge, or when you write blogs, etc. And occasionally you might win a challenge, but it is not the reason to be here. You are supporting the place, the owners, everyone here, so that you have a place where you belong.

DavidP

Thanks for sharing so openly. I fortunately never felt as unhappy as for it to be depressive. These days in NC I join a limited set of challenges, only CCs and only those where I enjoy the creative challenge of the theme. WRT chess and ELO. It certainly works though is subject to more variability. The winner of the game and tournament is the winner based on what you say. But your rating, particularly on a platform like chess.com is far more representative of a statistical distribution. It will be influenced by the ratings of opponents, results, volume of games. My Daily Chess rating is higher than my playing strength. That is due to my skewing the rating range of the opponents I get paired with. I do this not for an ego-driven desire for a high rating, rather because I want to play better players for the sake of learning. And playing better players means I earn more points when I win and drop less when I lose. The converse is true when playing lower rated opponents. What this means is that my rating fluctuates in a range. It is possible to play a strong play who lost a few games so is on the low side of their range while I may have won some games and be on the high side. In such cases the stength difference can be quite significant. That aside, of course it is far more objective than the totally subjective scoring in these art challenges.

germancowboy

Part II Occasionally I also feel frustrated that a potential good idea does not get the result you hoped for, that was in NC so, that won't be different here. No matter what voting system is used. If you follow the # daily-challenge on discord, you see that I actively try to help improving the system through discussions. Problem in general with any kind of challenge is, when other creators are voting, that you feel forced to create "crowd pleasers" and that bothers me the most. So once you stop that and pick what you like, I am sure you are better off. For me it is more the issue that you have to self-censor yourself, not to put too mature pieces up, because the average voter might vote you down (That's why I created the blog series "Beyond the Challenge", to show off the pieces I would have liked to enter). Everyone that I know here has different interests, lucky for all us is, that they often DO overlap, otherwise, what could we really communicate about. I do like the QT's because you can basically explore other members' interests, that broadens the horizon or - what I like - you can combine the QT topic with your interests. So - even though quite a few of the challenges make me smile (if not sometimes cringe) - I try to keep playing the challenges to support the site and to be part of the group or better yet FAMILY!